Joseph Gradante (00:01.527)

Hello, ladies and gents. Welcome to Orwellian Optics, a podcast by Alio Capital. I'm your host, Joseph Gridante. I'm here with our Chief Investment Officer, AJ Giannone. AJ, you want to introduce yourself?

AJ (00:14.104)

Welcome back everyone. Today we've got a great episode on deck for you. We're going to be talking about a few key themes here in the lead up to the election in November. And I'm joined as well by our chief operating officer, Chris Morgan. Morning, Chris.

Chris (00:26.254)

Yeah. Hey, everybody. Hey, Joseph. Good to be here. Yeah. Excited this morning to talk. It's at first about Harris's policies a little bit, especially around unrealized gains. What that means. What does that mean for the average person and really going forward? What does that mean for productivity and growth? So, Joseph, if you want to kick us off and talk about that a little bit.

Joseph Gradante (00:49.634)

Yeah, I think when you look at these policy proposals, unrealized capital gains, what is it? Let's first define what it is. So when you own a stock, for example, and you sell it, that's a realized capital gains. But in the time that you own it as it goes up, it's essentially shadow money, right? It's unrealized. And that's what she's proposing to tax on. But the rhetoric seems to...

Focus on billionaires, right? And everybody says, yeah, tax them more and tax them more. But who does this really impact the most? And, know, Alio Capital, right? We're a startup and I could say from first -hand experience, this is gonna impact startups the most and our ability to employ talent. And AJ, you might wanna get a little bit more in depth there as a chief investment officer. I don't wanna steal your swag.

Chris (01:38.671)

Hehehe.

AJ (01:38.862)

No, thanks, guys. I mean, the key thing to remember here that Joseph brought up is the difference between realized and unrealized gains. And if you look at Harris's proposal, it's specifically addressing, it's targeted at that higher end, that 100 million plus range. But that's really where it starts. mean, there have been very few instances in US history specifically where tax proposals

did not end up drifting down to capture larger and larger segments of the electorate over time. You look specifically at the income tax that was enacted in early 20th century as a prime example. what we're looking at here in her proposal to target unrealized gains is unique in that it targets a source of wealth that isn't liquid. And by liquid, we mean in cash.

to pay a tax bill. So, you if you sell a stock like Joseph said, you know, and you made a gain, great, you have cash now, you sold your stock, you realized a profit, you hand some of that profit over to the IRS to, you know, to pay the treasury your tax bill. In a situation where you receive a tax bill for an unrealized stock position, whether that's the equity in a startup that you work at, or whether that's a stock in your brokerage account,

You now have to come up with cash out of pocket to pay for a tax bill that you don't have. So, you either have to go sell something else, which is going to be called a depressive economic activity, or more likely, you have to go to a bank and borrow money to pay those taxes. Now, it doesn't take a genius to connect A to B and realize that the billionaire

corporate donors backing the Harris campaign are in a lot of cases the Wall Street banks. So when you look at the practical repercussions of a unrealized capital gains tax and you figure out that the most likely outcome from this proposal getting enacted would be a massive windfall to the bank's ability to lend against illiquid, highly unrealized stock positions, it doesn't take a genius to figure out where

AJ (04:05.906)

you know, where that idea came from and why it's being proposed. I mean, Joseph, what do you think about that? Like, is that some area where you see as a startup founder?

Joseph Gradante (04:13.364)

Yeah, think it, you know, yeah, you know, we, we mentioned last time regulatory capture and how, you know, the big players, the multinationals use this to eliminate competition. You can go back to Dodd -Frank, right? And so the idea was to break up the big banks and yet it led six banks consolidated into five banks. And so it helped consolidate power. And, you know, when you talk about this unreal, I mean, this is one of the most absurd proposals.

I mean, I went to my, I'm wearing a Ross Perot shirt right now. I went to my first political rally when I was nine, 10 years old. And I've never heard such absurdly because it's not even just, you know, number one startups, right? Which is one of the only sources of upward mobility right now in the American economy, particularly for young people. You you join a startup, you get stock in that company, that company becomes successful. Well, now, you you have the ability to go buy a house and provide from your family because...

you have ownership in something. And a lot of people out there, they don't have the money to start something. So getting stock and ownership in a company is one of the key paths to upward mobility. But furthermore, small businesses, mean, an electrician that, you know, let's say has, you know, four or five trucks, I think I read somewhere that each truck, you know, would be worth about, you know, 300 grand. So they would be impacted by this. And now all of a sudden they got to find money to pay this unrealized capital gain.

and they're gonna have to lay off some of the guys they have working for them because they need that extra cash to pay the government because it's tied up, right? And so, you you think of say a river and all the streams that come from that river, that's, you know, really the dam that it creates in our economy. And well, why do they wanna do that? Well, cause you know, I think it goes back to who's really funding this campaign and who controls it and...

If you look at the fact that the Democrats, as we talked about, they outraged Republicans three or four to one. Well, there's a lot of globalist banker interests tied into this. And they want to reduce American sovereignty. think there's a lot of chatter about the WEF and the World Economic Forum and what their agenda is. But I want to show this.

Chris (06:19.386)

Yeah.

Joseph Gradante (06:35.919)

The Hill, I think, is a really great source for objective, independent information. And I just want to play this video real quick.

Joseph Gradante (08:31.32)

So, you know, I wanna talk about that because you just heard what you had to say and what parts of it are real. And, you know, I think when you look at, you know, some of these protests that we've had over the past couple of years, it's, you know, and then you see them wearing masks, the ultimate symbol of authoritarianism coming from where?

CDC and the WHO, well, who influences that? Who controls it? Well, the world economic forum, right? A lot of the actors and players that are involved in that, you know, part of the WHO and the CDC, but it really, it's for the first time in American history, you see young people advocating to have their rights taken away, and they don't know that. And so what is this leading to? Well, you just saw it on the screen, you know, in 2030, you will own nothing.

There'll be social credit scores. You'll have no privacy. And most importantly, you're not going to have any upward mobility, which is why you can't own anything. so breaking American sovereignty and breaking our economy is how they get their proposed goal here, how they get the outcome that they want, because the U .S. Constitution really conflicts with everything that they're trying to accomplish. And I feel like the victim in all this

has been Gen Z and I think, it's interesting, Gen Z is the ultimate paradox because here's this group of, I'll call them kids because I'm dating myself a bit here, I'm an old man now, but they listen to 80s and 90s music that I grew up with and they fail to recognize that what made the 80s and 90s so great was individual identity, the lack of group think.

Chris (10:10.937)

You

Joseph Gradante (10:24.694)

And what were the policies that produced that culture and where they come from? Well, can attribute a lot of it to the Big Gipper, right? Ronald Reagan, even Bill Clinton, right? I mean, both Republicans and Democrats, they work together on bipartisan legislation, but it was a time of peace and it was a time of, you know, there was no cancel culture, nobody got to offend it. And as a result, you saw, you know, the hip hop movement, the alternative movement, you know, the...

the club scene, all these John, the goth movement, the punk, you know, the punk scene, all these John, because everybody, you know, wanted to be, everybody was something different. I remember St. Mark's in downtown New York City, you know, in the late 90s. And, you know, you'd have skaters, ravers, goth kids, punks, all in one block, because everybody wanted their own individual identity. And so everybody tried to outdo each other and how crazy they could dress up and how many Pearsons they could get. But, you know, I think, AJ, what do you think about this?

AJ (11:20.824)

Well, yeah, I the part of this that I think is particularly troublesome is that, you know, the whole thought process behind taking that individualistic American identity and trying to, you know, put basically bumpers on it or guardrails and try to say what is approved or what is safe about it and what is, you know, maybe potentially dangerous or unsafe.

is just a really terrible paradigm to kind of operate under. What makes America unique is that the founders and the people who arrived here to seize a better life, to give themselves and their families a more hopeful and prosperous future, were understanding of the fact that there is an element of risk and an element of uncertainty that is inherent in that process.

There's an element of being uncomfortable, being comfortable being uncomfortable and being able to acknowledge that fact that as you go through life, if you want to be prosperous, if you want to have freedom, if you want to have all these things that are ideals that we should aspire to, then no one is going to hand them to you. The government certainly is not going to come around and, you know, with your a trade.

at lunch and just hand you the things that you think you deserve. You know, have to take ownership on a personal level and execute the strategies that you personally believe will lead you there. And to me, that's the biggest piece that's missing here is that, you know, we've lost an element of that and I'm not sure how we get it back.

Chris (13:01.733)

Yeah.

Chris (13:06.937)

Yeah, we've lost that personal responsibility to that personal identity. Joseph mentioned St. Mark's. If you go there today, it's all people wearing black shirts and denim jeans. They all look exactly the same to the point where it's creepy. It almost feels like a post -apocalyptic post -apocalyptic movie where, you know, we all have these social scores and we don't own anything. We're all just part of this giant system. It's almost scary. It is scary. But, AJ, you also. Yeah.

Joseph Gradante (13:21.068)

Yeah.

Joseph Gradante (13:24.706)

Yeah.

Joseph Gradante (13:33.527)

Chris, you had some good numbers that I thought you should bring up that kind of allude to this. Can you speak to what you saw in that poll you looked at?

Chris (13:38.831)

Definitely.

Chris (13:43.291)

Yeah, we reading this poll about how many people are proud to be Americans. It compared today to 2003. In 2003, people were polling at about 70 percent saying they were extremely proud to be an American. Today, that number is right around 41 percent. That's insane. That's that's breaking down what it means to be us, to be American. People are no longer proud of that. It's it's it's wild.

AJ (14:04.142)

Wow.

Joseph Gradante (14:10.082)

Yeah, they're breaking our culture and it's interesting, you you look at the term MAGA. They don't even say it because they know, I mean, how could you say the term make America great and turn that taboo or say that's provocative and negative? To me, it's tantamount to go into a local supermarket or a farmer's market, I should say, that says buy local, right? You should want your country to be exceptional, right? You should want a great economy. Of course, you know, there are certain things that the government, you know,

needs to do and I think ensure equal opportunity, but not equality of outcome because you're gonna get what you put in and innovation is what increases our life expectancy, what raises our standard of living. And you have to, for lack of a better expression, kind of unleash the animal spirits to get that innovation, but that rise in tide helps everyone. And poor Gen Z, they've been manipulated and lied to. And so they're out there with masks on.

Chris (14:44.379)

Exactly.

Joseph Gradante (15:06.923)

Literally saying, censor me, take my right to defend myself away, take my pride, and they don't know that they're saying that. And I don't know how to communicate with this generation. Chris, you have thoughts on that?

Chris (15:19.012)

If you think about what the founders went through to make sure we have these rights and what that generation is now voting against, it's you know, the part of innovation is risk taking, right? Part of what the government should do is incentivize people to take risk to make things better. We're not just developing along a horizontal, you know, move production overseas. You have to take risks to move vertically and actually make things different and better. And if the government to tie things back to a policy

If the government is instituting a tax on unrealized capital gains, that is disincentivizing risk and that is government meddling in business and the economy in a way that it is not supposed to and in a way that the founders would be turning over in their graves. AJ, do you have anything you want to

AJ (16:04.45)

Yeah, and the key thing there, just to go back to this point real quick, is that from an economics perspective, taxing unrealized capital gains is just disastrous policy. There are other ways to accomplish that goal if you so choose that won't have such disastrous impacts. One of the particularly insidious aspects of an unrealized capital gains tax, though, is that because there's no realization of it, it's up for

to either A, the government or a private transaction at a non -marketing clearing price to determine what your tax bill is going to be. So, if you have something like a 409A valuation, okay, sure, there's a mark on your business. But if, for example, you don't have any kind of capital raising event or anything that would trigger a valuation event,

There's effectively a ladder in place that's going to say your business grew this much in value this year. This is the tax bill that you owe. And even more than that, theoretically, there are a multitude of examples where, you know, maybe 10 shares trade at a certain price. That's not necessarily indicative of what the entire corpus of that equity stake is going to be worth upon a realization event. So there are a multitude of ways for this to be gamed, which

given the proclivity of people with wealth and means to seek out innovative and perhaps creative ways to structure their wealth will no doubt be gained. And inevitably that's going to lead to shortfalls in the assumptions of how much money this is going to bring into the treasury versus what was predicted. And they're going to go after people one rung lower and then a rung further lower.

all the way down until this hits middle class taxpayers like every other piece of this pie. Because unfortunately, and sorry to interrupt, Joseph, but unfortunately, that's where the bulk of the wealth is in America is at the middle class. You can look at billionaires owning a disproportionate percentage of wealth, sure. But if you want to actually fix the budget deficits and the fact that we are spending more than we make, and you go after tax receipts as a way to do that, you inevitably end up at the

Joseph Gradante (17:57.59)

And

AJ (18:22.016)

unfortunate realization that the only place you can get the sum of money required to accomplish that goal is from going after middle class taxpayers.

Joseph Gradante (18:30.622)

Thousand percent and I just wanted to tie it back, know to Why the why why would they do this? Well what we talked about in the first part economic freedom is the prerequisite to political freedom So if they take away your economic freedom that right is the catalyst impetus for the government to seize more control Right. And so that's why they're doing it so they can get more control of your life and the fact that they've manipulated young people to advocate for this is pretty scary and

I want to just talk about the term liberalism a little bit. Liberalism. What does it mean to be a liberal? Because I don't really like to use right or left, but for the sake of helping people understand in a colloquial way, the left has kind of co -opted this term. If you look at liberalism throughout the 18th century, the 19th century, it was all about fighting against the centralization of power. You talk about the founders and

and what makes us Americans, right? We don't capitulate to centralized power, right? We fight back against centralized power, right? That is what our constitution is about, and these freedoms that we have that many Americans take for granted. But the term liberalism, I think post -World War II started to be manipulated a little bit, right? Because it has a very positive connotation versus the term, say, conservative. Like nobody really, you know, conservative liberalism progressive.

They have positive connotations, but they don't, it's again, name this podcast as Orwellian Optics, and we want you to be able to see through the fog, and that often left is right and up is down. so liberalism, as it's being used today, mean, Karl Lihar is talking about democracy and liberalism. mean, it's mind blowing. This is a woman that didn't get a single vote to run for president, not even by the Democrat delegates. So.

Chris (20:14.223)

you

Joseph Gradante (20:20.494)

But the liberalism right a lot of young people they want to say I'm a liberal I'm a liberal right and and no you're not you are actually advocating for authoritarianism and when you advocate towards socialism You know look at history. It is a path to fascism right Mussolini was a huge socialist and then eventually he came to the conclusion well socialism didn't go far enough and so it leads to the government having more control and I think you know it's just the left is not liberal the paradigm has shifted

Chris (20:42.341)

Yeah.

Joseph Gradante (20:49.107)

And going back to Trump, again, we are an independent company. I want you to you know, really get that point across is that we're not left or right. We're not about red or blue. We're about the green and helping you to understand how this is going to have an impact in your future, your upward mobility, your posterity, your children's abilities to have a better future. You know, for the first time in American history, young people are more likely to be worse off than their parents were. And that's because of

They're being manipulated into policies that are gonna hurt them. And so we're trying to help you guys see through the fog. yeah, going back to the world economic forum and this guy, Klaus Schwab, I mean, you wanna talk about Trump and paint Trump as a villain. Okay, Trump's got a lot of flaws, but society is not black and white. And when you look at people going out to vote, you see people on one side, it's the selective group of libertarians,

for lack of a better word, conservatives, progressives. That's what the Trump, lot of Democrats on the Trump side, they're not, it's not really a movement of republic, it's a populist movement. And so it's an anti -establish movement. So I just wanna show this clip real quick of Klaus Schwab, a guy who's worth a lot more than Trump, 20, 30 times what Trump is worth. He's a global banker who wants control of your life. And so listen to what he has to say here in terms of what the biggest threat is to this system.

system of control that they're trying to enact, know, undemocratically, I might say, right? So watch this clip. Again, I don't have the clip right now, but I'm just gonna open it to send to them. And so, okay.

Chris (22:27.705)

that. Yeah.

market here right now.

Joseph Gradante (22:36.236)

Yeah, so you heard it for yourselves and yet they just use Trump as a zeitgeist. And it's kind of scary because I don't vote based on, do I want to have a pot roast with one of these people? I look at how their policies are going to impact my life and my ability to be better off than I was a year ago and two years before that. And it's kind of scary that a lot of the vote on that side is just anti -Trump vote. It's just based in anger, fear.

but it's not policy driven. Chris, what do you think about that?

Chris (23:09.028)

Yeah, it's crazy how the I was just thinking about liberals from history. How did that term start and how did it develop? And it was brought around by guys like John Locke and the idea that we needed to to shed the monarchy and shed this kind of overarching centralized control. So a guy like Thomas Jefferson considered himself liberal. And what did he want to do? He wanted every individual to pull themselves up by them, their bootstraps that he wanted them to focus on their

their life, their neighbors life, not who's across the world. That guy was a liberal. He wanted the best of individuals in his country and not what's best for the world. So to see it develop into something that it is now, this kind of Klaus Schwabian, everybody's the same global trade. It's kind of scary. But it makes me think, what will that develop into next? Will we have to go through this burning it all down to rise out of the ashes? AJ, what do you think of that?

AJ (24:07.136)

I mean, I certainly hope not. I think this podcast is a good start in terms of an antidote to the disease, but there are a whole lot of others who are saying the same things and their voices are being pushed down by traditional corporate media and by really the same monetary and powerful interests that are pushing these

really destructive policies on us. you can go to the reasoning that they have, it's, you know, to your video's point, Joseph, they see the populist movement as a threat to their power. They've worked tirelessly and selfishly to secure vast amounts of wealth and vast amounts of power to protect that wealth. And unfortunately for them, you know,

We are all individuals who have agency and we live in a country that is still free and we are free to voice these concerns and highlight these machinations and give rise to dissenting opinions that can hopefully persuade others to see these things for what they are and to vote, which is the single greatest power that we as American citizens have to exercise our right to vote.

in our interests and not in the interests of the globalist corporate billionaire class who really see no problem with the current situation and would prefer to keep it status quo for as long as possible. And that's a real problem because I think a lot of people are not in a very good spot right now. And to Joseph's point, our goal as citizens should be to leave the country in a better spot for our children than we received it from our parents.

And frankly, we're failing at that.

Joseph Gradante (26:04.779)

Yeah, I mean the entire goal of this company is really to, right, is to make an impact, a positive impact on society, right? You only get, you know, one shot at this thing called life. And if you're not trying to make society better, then what are you doing here? But unfortunately, you know, there's a lot of, as AJ mentioned, know, vested power interests that want to protect their wealth and their control and they're not looking out for your best interests. I mean,

Chris (26:04.89)

in those.

Joseph Gradante (26:33.624)

You know, the acronym ESG, right? Just to use an example. Well, it sounds good, right? Environmental, social, governance, right? These standards they want to put in place. But what is it really about? Who participates in it? Well, it's stakeholder capitalism. It's these multinational corporations, right? That they almost, you know, from the WEF standpoint, the Davos standpoint, you know, they want to give these multinational corporations

that participate and go by the rules, all the power, right? And that is against, you know, many times your best interest because, their interests are not your interests. And it's just so scary that they've, you know, been able to manipulate young people by taking control of our institutions, particularly the media and academia, to kind of advocate for what they want and work against their best interests because we've never really...

witnessed this before in American history. And to tie it all back to what we're really trying to accomplish here at Alio Capital, the election's coming up. And again, Donald Trump, whatever your opinion is, fine. But when you look at people like Tulsi Gavrid, and you look at people like Dennis Quaid, and Robert Kennedy Jr., and Eric Weinstein, and Russell Brand,

You know, who else? Tucker Carlson. I understand there's a little stereotype and connotation, but I implore you to actually listen to this man and, you know, the work that he's done, one of the last real journalists that we have in this country trying to get the truth to the people. You know, this is an eclectic group of different individuals with different ideas. But what they all agree on is that there's a major threat to humanity right now. And the way that we kind of, you know, fight this

you know, second American Revolution, if you will, is with our voices and how we vote. And, you know, it's up to you to make that decision, but we're just here to kind of, you know, give you the facts and information as we see it. And Chris, AJ, you have any last thoughts? Any last thoughts here?

Chris (28:37.604)

Yeah.

AJ (28:38.818)

Well, one point, yeah, the one point there, Joseph, is I actually watched an interview with Russell Brand sitting there with Tucker Carlson over the weekend. And you made the point like, you know, they get this guy, know, RFK Jr. and he comes out with a message that's, want to make America healthy again. I want to promote free speech. you know, I want to protect our children and make sure everybody can live and thrive.

Chris (28:40.271)

That's exactly.

AJ (29:08.012)

And they're like, this guy's a hard right wing fascist. Like, are you kidding me, man? Like, this is not, this can't be real life. Like, this is not something that makes any sense intuitively, but the corporate media has captured, you know, the populace so much to the extent that these voices don't get heard and the message gets spun and respawn until it's exactly what fits in their little boxes. But I mean, to me, that was just absolutely comical, you know, and it takes a guy like Russell Brand to kind of,

Chris (29:32.557)

Exactly.

That's.

AJ (29:38.336)

really articulate that in a way that makes it so abundantly obvious that we're getting sold a bill of goods here.

Chris (29:45.946)

Yeah, that's the perfect example that the entrenched powers do not care about you listener. They don't care about Joseph. They don't care about. They don't care about me. They care about themselves and making themselves richer. That's it. So any time you vote for these people, any time to support them, that's what you're supporting. And that's what we want to do is change that. We want to expose the the pardon my language, but the bullshit that's out there.

and be able to help you think more clearly and make more efficient decisions for all of us. That's different, right? Nobody else is doing that. We're not afraid to speak up and tell you what's wrong. Other folks might want to keep things the way they are, but it's in your best interest, it's in our best interest to muddy the waters a little bit and make for change, for positive change for humanity.

AJ (30:34.018)

Well, in that that same regard, too, the interesting statistic that I saw was that in the wake of the covid recovery, the number of startups and the number of small business formations are at all time highs. And these are people who are generally younger, potentially millennials and Gen Z demographics who've made the decision to start their own business, to go down the path of entrepreneurship. And if we don't as a country nurture.

Joseph Gradante (30:34.722)

Yeah.

AJ (31:02.284)

and support these small businesses and these entrepreneur minded folks to build the businesses that will be the household names of tomorrow. And we crush them under onerous regulations that were written at the behest of the Walmarts and the Amazons to protect their monopoly status. Then, you know, that's really the primary vector with which people are able to attain that.

American dream level of wealth and prosperity is through small business formations, through equity ownership in small business and startup formations and foundation. So from that perspective, I think it's imperative that, you know, as we look out here at the election looming at the future, at future elections, that we kind of keep in mind, like, this is a key part of the American economy and it's at risk. I mean,

We have a incredibly resourceful, intelligent, well -educated group of founders and entrepreneurs who are now in the very early stages of this journey. And if we don't help them reach the level that they are capable of, it will be a massive disservice to the future.

Joseph Gradante (32:17.737)

It's innovation, That's our quality of life. The way we're gonna solve a lot of these issues that are facing us, like climate change, is not through government. The government doesn't solve any problems, right? They're there. They can provide some basic services like the police and the firemen, but go to the DMV if you wanna understand how the government operates. If that's what you want your healthcare to look like and your economy to look like and your future to look like, well then you know who to vote for, right?

If you want to have an opportunity at a better future, well, then you got to look at the other side. And if you really call yourself a liberal, think, you know, I mean, I'm not into ideologies, right? I consider myself to be more of an existentialist and a libertarian. But if you really want to break it down on a simple level, mean, right? What does what do the Democrats stand for? Big government. That's what that party stands for from an ideological perspective. You know, the GOP, think, you know, there's

People tend to associate the GOP with Dick Cheney and George W. Bush, but these were neocons. John McCain's pro -military industrial complex. If you look at the history of the Republican Party, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Dwight Eisenhower, well, it's about limited government, right? Because there's only two systems. It's either the government has control of everything,

or you have the government in the private sector and the private sector acts as a check on government. And no, it's not perfect, but it's preferred to the former in terms of when you look at the results and upward mobility. mean, historically, socialism has produced more poverty and destruction than any other system in history. And capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty. Now, there has to be some balance. And I believe in social safety nets. And there are certain

policies that should be socialistic, but even then I think it's probably best pursued through a public -private partnership. so again, at Allio Capital here, we're trying to cut through the noise and we are an investment company, folks. We focus on absolute returns and we position our portfolios for geopolitical risk, because there is all this change happening on a global stage.

Joseph Gradante (34:33.836)

just hide out and fixed income anymore and get the diversification you need. you don't know how things are gonna go. The election right now is too close to call. And so your assets have to be positioned for that. But we do the podcast to get people to really look at these policies and how they impact the macroeconomics because the two things that really...

affect markets the most are monetary and fiscal policy. That's what determines growth. That's what determines inflation. That's what determines the credit spread and the risk premium. And so, often people, they don't wanna talk about politics, but they'll talk about economics and they don't understand how the two are correlated. And so that's why we do what we do every week on this show. And with that, this has been another episode. Don't forget to check us out on YouTube Music, Spotify.

Apple podcast wherever you get your you know your sources of information and go to alio capital comm and join the beta and with that ladies and gents peace love have a great week

AJ (35:40.878)

See you everyone.

Chris (35:42.181)

Thanks everybody.